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[vbelac]

Apparently I'm free. Ignore the above if you wish. I will not be retaliating violently to recent events.

[Commander]

     Thanks for freeing them simon. Glad you finally came around.

               I still haven't gotten around to make a post, so here it goes.
 
          All of my actions on this were based on principle though. My explanation:

       Let's back up to when joey and pro and sgt all started logging in. I was suspicious at first.
Then vbelac warned me that they might do something (but was uncertain of at the time).
So I was prepared to pearl them all if they did anything. I logged out for about an hour and came back right after simon pearls pro and vbelac for literally standing there I guess. Knowing nothing about ANYTHING at the time, I immediately went to vbelac and public chat for information on what was going on and what happened. After I got vbelac's side of the story, I went straight to simon in PM. I'll paraphrase what I said to simon -> "Okay, now time to get your view on all this". Clearly I got both sides of the story FIRST, for about an hour mind you, talking with vbelac and simon in private chat.

         Toward the end of the conversation with simon after he told me what HE thought happened, I asked him (I'll paraphrase again) -> "what will make you free him?" I go on further asking what right did he have, what did they do to deserve a pearl, etc. (some of these I asked multiple times). Simon could barely give me an answer to any of these which further proves the illegitimacy of the pearling in the first place. I'll list some of his answers that I remember:

1. He hangs out with them
2. He's in the Skype group with them
3. He's a gang member (whatever that means)

             What reasons are these? not really any reasons as far as I'm concerned.. simon had simply nothing to back up the pearling.

           You can't dictate who people hang out with.
           You can't dictate who skypes with who.
           and you definitely can't call someone a 'gang member' and pearl them (I'm laughing at this)  

          So basically simon had no reasons. He wanted to pass them off as real reasons so badly too.

          Backing back up to where we were talking about freeing vbelac.

          Apparently he claimed he could assert authority that he doesn't even have by forcing conditions on vbelac in order to be free. This included: an apology and I think no retaliation.

           vbelac had literally NOTHING to be sorry for. If anything you should have thanked him for pearling one of their own (sgt). Now I understand you didn't know this at the time, no one told you. I just assumed you knew everything since you were on before me. However. Even after the fact when you DID know, you still wouldn't budge. No reasonability. Nothing. It was either take it or leave it.

                  Once I realized you weren't changing your mind, I went into hunting mode. For holding innocent bystanders pearled for no earthly reason. (I'd like to see you give REAL reasons) (if you can) (not "dey b gang membs") or some crap..

           I also want to make it explicitly clear that I've not "turned to the dark side". I'm on the side of freedom and principle.

             so yeah I got both sides of the story before I did anything. Check the logs. Whatever floats your boat. Just don't call me a liar over and over when I'm not, and don't call me anything else that's not true. That just pisses people off even more (like any other human).

              All charges against you are dropped now simon. you are now officially not a dictator anymore.

              and yeah it is pretty crazy how we're in eachother's positions from last time


                   I really can't believe shystan got this all to happen though... I mean really... whether it was accidentally or purposely.

[atypicalmale]

I agree with every single thing Commander said.  Simon adopted the role of tyrant.  The parallels of Simon's actions and a state abusing it's power were astounding.  He was all about vbelac and Pro being guilty by association.  He used us vs. them language liberally.  He played off of players fear by saying our builds were in danger if they were allowed to go free, when neither vbelac, nor Pro have ever destroyed another player's build. 

Simon got a taste of power and went buck wild.  The most ridiculous example of this being that Simon was willing to free vbelac if he apologized for calling Simon a name, a name which vbelac was fully justified in calling him after being unjustly pearled. Bogus I say! 

In no way do I condone trolling, griefing, chat spam, or anything of the sort.  If there is to be justice, pearlings need to be concisely explained, and performed directly following the pearlable offense.

[Commander]

     yeah exactly atypical, thanks

[Intangir]

well now we know who commander will poison

[atypicalmale]

I can't seem to quote properly, but wat are you saying intan?

[SavanahMile]

Atypical did you read the "Check this out " simon posted a link, and what intangir wrote?  i believe shystan (guy vbelac brought here) is a sociopath for sure. 

bottom line i do not want to play with these people anymore, they are not welcome on this server.

I understand Commander, that is what i truly love about him he has your back!  He had mine and perled that crazy guy shystan, and all this peer pressure to let him go.
Nope worse move we ever made freeing shystan, he is a cancer.  Commander I thank you for always trying to stand by your friends, but with that said I don't know how I feel about vbelac anymore.  I don't know he has my back, or if I can trust him, he is with this group that i am about to report if they don't move on, I am that sick of them.

So I understand Simons thoughts too Vbelac was not just standing there unaware he was at verbal war with simon saying how he would free progamer, and they are all in on it, PLEASE we know your not playing us, only these other guys. 


 We have rights too and I did not agree to any of this, and their racial slurs on the internet are very damming.  Thank Miley Cyrus for lighting that fire, she came in like a wrecking ball, and "thegreatjaxon" was singing/typing and he and his "group" did nothing but cause chaos and it started with progamer killing this guy HE KNOWS apparently, says nothing as we ask whats up, then lies later as says he killed him cause he was wrecking orange when he was at my voluntaryist tower snitch CLEARLY not in orange.  I screen shot everythigng from these guys, enought rope to hang themselves. 

[Intangir]

ok well i just talked with vbelac and i think we are going to stop all of this, and rebuild, take what lessons we can from this, bury the rest.. and move on, and rebuild


these griefers have divided us long enough, lets just move on

[Simon_Jeeha]

i didn't "come around"

i got more information and factored it in and changed my mind

i didn't know that vbelac pearled sgt, if had i wouldn't have pearled him, if you had told me before trying to KILL ME I would've released him

no one told me until there was an angry gorilla guarding vbelacs cage

i can't go release you when there is a man loaded for bear waiting to kill me

I TRIED THREE TIMES, and commander came after me every time

after he logged i was able to talk, think, and release you

calling me a worthless cunt and getting your angry gorilla after me did nothing but prolong your imprisonment

im definitely not going to make the mistake of trying to reason with commander again, i spent like an hour explaining my reasons over and over and over.. and over for him to completely ignore it and take 2-3 lines completely out of context from the whole thing and try to kill me..

can you imagine if you goto a private mediator and this is what they did?
simon: "well mr mediator, this is what i think"
mediator: "what do you say other party?"
vbelac: "well this is what i think"
mediator tries to kill simon!!

really?



anyway your out now, i say we move on, i will keep my worthless cunt fluids away from you and hopefully you can keep your angry gorilla from pearling me

[SavanahMile]

please do that sounds nasty....


be nice don't call commander a gorilla,
he is a pretty tough pvp guy, hunted v2 griefers like every day.  lol auh the good old days.
loved v2, my lost city of atlantis under the sea.

[The_Shanghai_Kid]

Originally, my mediation services were requested. It's clear that won't be necessary, so instead I'm going to offer my thoughts on the situation. Here is my lengthy analysis of the situation, which covers the major players and issues involved. There is a sort of TL;DR at the bottom.

I have spent several long, exhausting hours crafting this protracted breakdown. It is very frank, and I talk about some things some people have said and done that I don't agree with. But I have no bones to pick with anyone. Any criticism is meant in the spirit of “If you want to achieve such-and-such a goal, it appears to me that this action is counterproductive to that goal.” I apologize in advance if anything comes off otherwise.


======
Shystan
======

After the profanity-spamming incident, I was confident that Stan was either unwilling or unable to refrain from engaging in deliberate harassment. His harassment of Savanah had been chronic, deliberate, unrepentant, and had the result of causing real-life emotional distress.

When Stan was pearled for the second time, I told him that people wanted to see that he was trustworthy, not through words, but through his actions over time. Not a day, not a week, but a month or more. At the time, he indicated his understanding and agreement with this idea, and expressed the same idea on the forums.

His choice to engage in activities that resulted in the spamming of racial slurs and obscenities, with the primary purpose of eliciting an emotional response from the same person whom he had previously harassed, whom he had agreed to let alone, is a violation of his explicit commitment to engage this community in good faith, and a violation of one of the server's very few actual, bannable rules.


=======
ProGamer
=======

ProGamer has expressed that he enjoys watching drama, and creating it at his convenience—whenever he feels he can do so while avoiding any culpability for inciting, aiding, or acting as an accessory after the fact. Drama means the emotional distress of others. Enjoying the emotional distress of others is sadism. Perhaps not of the grandiose, Hollywood stereotype variety, but sadism nonetheless.

Furthermore, ProGamer is, to use his own words to describe himself, a “weasel.” If he is using the common definition of the metaphor, this means he would dispute claims of being a blatant liar, but that he uses other forms of disingenuous manipulation to achieve his ends. Not all forms of dishonesty require explicit, verbal lies. Perhaps he would say he is not even dishonest. I think being a weasel is a species of dishonesty.

Sadly, I have seen no indication that this upper limit to his dishonesty is motivated by any ethical code other than the code of not getting caught. Similarly, he has not provided any reason why anyone should regard his seemingly dispassionate acceptance of certain punishments as a sign of trust and good faith. To the contrary, he has repeatedly expressed and demonstrated his enjoyment of playing chicken with the rules, and his view of engaging in this kind of drama/dispute resolution as a form of entertainment.

It is therefore impossible to definitively interpret any seemingly sincere actions as such when there are equally powerful reasons to interpret them as disingenuous, amoral pragmatism. Such behavior, as Simon's linked article mentions, closely resembles sociopathy.

This community has no rule against acting like a junior sadist or Monday Morning sociopath. His more aggressive colleagues will eventually be permanently imprisoned or banned, at which point I can't see ProGamer having either the will or ability to sustain any serious effort to make a long-term nuisance of himself. Until then, if you think ProGamer's behavior is anti-social, I recommend social pressure and ostracism.


====
Joey
====

I don't think Joey or Swagg should have been banned for helping Stan to harass Savanah. Joey and Swagg should have been informed of the situation and received a first (and last) warning that a second offense would result in a permanent ban. Consequently, I believe that Intangir was right to unban them, so the system could be allowed to work as intended.

I don't know Joey's current status. Lugia4848 claims to be Shystan, and claims that Joey is TheGreatJaxon. TheGreatJaxon engaged in verbal harassment and was imprisoned. If Jaxon is Joey, Joey should be banned for repeat violations of the harassment rule.


=====
Swagg
=====

Swagg used his freedom to grief again. There is no dispute about this. He is imprisoned, and at the very least, should remain so.

That said, if a player has run afoul of the community's bannable rules once, but is allowed to return after a ban, there is also a case to be made that the admin(s) may, at their discretion, construe subsequent offenses—even if they are, on the surface, entirely in-game—as a form of personal, direct and retaliatory attack.

In this case, at least one sign was placed outside ProGamer's home that says “No fascists (admins) allowed.” This indicates a personal grudge, and gives grounds to construe in-game griefing as personal harassment.


==========
Vbelac/Caleb
==========

I think it was appropriate to free Caleb. I haven't seen or heard sufficient evidence or testimony to indicate that imprisonment was warranted. I will address Simon's imprisoning of Caleb below. Caleb has his own interpretation of the events and characters involved in this situation. This, in itself, is no offense. Nor is any name-calling, or any other personal attack.

As a character witness, I can say that Caleb has treated me with respect and consideration. He moved next door to my homestead and was a thoughtful neighbor. He even asked for permission before entering my farm, when many players just assume it's cool not to ask as long as you replant.

I find his choice of friends odd, but there's no rule against being friends with bullies and liars who treat other people like shit for the lulz (i.e sadism). That is Caleb's prerogative. If people want to exert non-aggressive social pressure on Caleb because of the company he keeps, that is their prerogative.


=====
Simon
=====

I have seen Simon act as a decisive protector of this community, and he has no doubt pre-empted a considerable amount of nonsense and frustration in so doing. This approach also comes with drawbacks and blind spots. He is quick to act on his first emotional snapshot of a situation, and not as quick to re-consider it. When his first impression is vindicated, it appears to be a fine way of doing things (which it isn't, but I'll come back to that later). When an issue proves more complicated than the first impression, it creates more problems than it solves.

I think his emotions were running too high when he imprisoned Caleb and Pro, and they remained far too charged up in the subsequent, disastrous dialogue that led to he and Commander coming to blows. Before the argument turned to violence, I suggested that they both step back from the situation to cool off, and neither of them chose to act on this suggestion.

I don't think his decision to imprison came from a place of malice or gross negligence. However, during the subsequent argument with Commander, Simon completely destroyed a section of the Nether tunnel connecting SG to OC. As far as I've heard, Simon has taken responsibility for this disproportionate act, and will repair the damage he caused.

There was no good reason for the argument with Commander to go down the way it did. I know that both parties are capable of better behavior. I don't begrudge them for the universal human shortcoming of losing their temper when provoked. A lot of provocation has occurred, and a lot of tempers have been lost. But it's an MO that he, and everyone should commit to moving away from.


=========
Commander
=========

As much as they might not want to hear it, Commander and Simon have a couple of important traits in common: they are both quick to rile, and they stay riled. Commander is also just as passionate about the swift and decisive pursuit of justice as Simon is, so it makes sense that it won't be pretty if they disagree about the right course of action.

Simon did not have all the facts at his disposal, and should have refrained from acting on an incomplete picture. Similarly, it appears to me that Commander's decision to resort to combat came from an emotional place, and it only escalated the situation.

In the final analysis, testimony indicates that Commander had access to more facts than Simon did. When it became clear that communicating these facts wasn't succeeding, I think this is where Commander had a choice to step back and cool off, or escalate. I think the situation was not sufficiently time-sensitive or otherwise urgent that resorting to combat was the proportionate response.

I can't offer a more decisive opinion than that for lack of sufficient evidence. I observed some of their conflict, but missed other parts of it, and I can't reach a sound judgment based on their own statements of how they believe they behaved during the parts of their conflict that I didn't see.


=======
Savanah
=======

I have not seen Savanah engage in any wrong-doing during the course of this ongoing situation. Furthermore, she has always treated me with bend-over-backward kindness, and I've seen her do the same for many, many others. Regular players and new players alike.

I believe she was singled out for a variety of reasons, including the fact that she reacts more quickly and more intensely than others. Trolls want to get the most bang for their buck, and gravitate toward the easiest targets.

High sensitivity has its upsides and downsides. When Savanah was furious in the aftermath of Stan's second imprisonment, she argued vociferously to let him rot forever. When the situation started to calm down, she swung too far to the other end of the spectrum. For example, I recommended a 30-day ban from OC,  and other correspondingly strict terms of release. She (and some others) deemed most of my recommendations too harsh. They were carefully crafted to provide maximum protection for the victims while still giving Stan an opportunity to show good faith.

My concern in this example is not that she first disagreed with my interest in seeing Stan paroled, or that she later chose not to use the terms I recommended. My concern is that emotion dominated the entire process. Savanah wasn't alone in this, of course. As Intangir has already observed, very few people who got involved with the situation kept a level head.


======
Intangir
======

Intangir is The Man, as much as he might wish he wasn't. So when he loses his cool, the consequences are worse. Like he said, it's a tough, and thankless position. People rarely pause to compliment, but always stop to criticize when a ball gets dropped. He has already admitted that his emotions got the better of him (and almost everyone else). It takes courage to admit you acted like an “asshole” (his word).

I think the situation was poorly managed. His lengthy, profanity-laced, name-calling tirades were toxic and counter-productive for everyone, himself included. He has since expressed regret and remorse, and demonstrated it by unbanning Swag and Joey. Even though Swag went on to grief OC, it remains the right thing to do, and I respect him for doing the right thing (see my section on Justice for more).

It appears that Intangir, like Savanah, is a high-sensitivity personality. When he feels attacked, he feels threatened. When he feels threatened, he counter-attacks. I have rarely taken issue with the spirit or essence of his response to situations, only in the manner of expression and execution.

I know its possible to create a set of clear and reasonable, rules, standards, expectations and so on, that would take a huge load off Intangir's shoulders. Beyond that, there will always be hollow cries of fascism when a troll experiences the unpleasant consequences of his actions. It will never go away entirely.

I happily volunteer my years of customer-facing experience in the online gaming industry (support, security and community management) to help bring the site into alignment with Intangir's vision.


=========
Voluntarism
=========

My take on voluntarism is that it is not a set of content and outcomes, but a methodology. Therefore I can't take seriously the claims that “only this or that is voluntarism,” a phrase I've heard a lot as people attacked each other for being hypocrites, etc.

At the risk of oversimplification, the only thing that matters is consent. If everyone agrees to the terms involved, it's voluntarist. If Intangir wants to ban people for potty-mouth, you can accept the terms of using his private property, or you can abstain from using his private property. Your aesthetic discomfort over the terms of the voluntary arrangement doesn't make the arrangement involuntary.

I advise people to always remember that the in-game voluntarism is wrapped inside a layer of real-world voluntarism. No virtual world could ever be a perfect, hermetically-sealed vacuum of voluntarist emulation. For example, the simple fact that people can log out of the virtual world creates an insurmountable idiosyncracy between the virtual world and the real one.

If you want no rules, go find a chaos server. If you want more than zero rules, be prepared for fallible human judgment to enter the equation. Be prepared to accept, with as much maturity as you can muster, decisions with which you disagree.


========
Character
========

While server logs are good at verifying certain things, there are other things that become impossible to verify and prove on the internet. So, generally, character judgment often matters more in online communities than it does in the real world. This isn't an issue specific to this game or server, but to the nature of the internet itself.

Often, issues boil down to he-said, she-said. When that happens, people are going to weigh the characters of every he and she involved. It shouldn't be the only factor involved, but it's simply unrealistic (and morally unnecessary) to suggest that, all things being equal, people should pretend that the word of someone in good standing for years carries no more credibility than a week-old griefer on his second strike.

Good faith. Trust. Character. If these things don't interest you, I suspect this is the wrong community for you.


=====
Justice
=====

I've seen some comments that concern me as people reflect on this situation. For example, I've seen a couple people convey the sentiment that paroling Stan after his second imprisonment is literally 9/11-raised-to-the-power-of-Hitler. Or more specifically, that everything that's happening now is happening because Stan was paroled. I disagree. If Intangir had banned only Stan after he chose to spam racial slurs and profanity, with the primary purpose of harassing Savanah, we would be looking at a very different landscape today.

I'm not trying to needle Intangir about something he's already acted to correct. The point is that the system only works if it's seen through from start to finish. If the process is sabotaged, thwarted, undermined, contradicted or abandoned during any phase, it isn't the system that failed. Letting the system work requires calm, patience, conviction and fortitude. Yes, it's easier said than done.

If Stan wanted to show good faith, the community wins. If Stan wanted to confirm others' suspicions of bad faith and earn himself a ban or imprisonment, the community wins. But Commander acted out of anger, and intended to leave him permanently imprisoned over what was, at that time, relatively minor griefing. Simon, Intangir, and anyone else who recognized that situation as unjust is not made “incorrect” by any subsequent offenses Stan committed. Like voluntarism, justice is a method, not an outcome.

Guesses, assumptions, intuitions and hunches make a weak foundation for a system of justice, even if your hunches turn out to be correct. Broken clocks are right twice a day, and you could play Russian Roulette with one empty chamber and live. In neither case did sound judgment have anything to do with the outcome.

This holds true for the crew of trolls currently under consideration, and any troll that might ever rear its head. It's the Fall-In-Or-Fall-Out principle. It's the Give-Them-Enough-Rope principle. And it works every time. No, it doesn't satisfy the desire for instant gratification, for revenge, to make a stupid problem that shouldn't exist in the first place just disappear. But it does work every time, when it's given time.


======
Emotion
======

Like I said above, I've seen a couple people convey the sentiment that paroling Stan after his second imprisonment is literally 9/11-raised-to-the-power-of-Hitler. The kind of hyperbolic emotionalism this sentiment conveys is the single most dangerous obstacle in the pursuit of a valid system of justice.

Profanity, hyperbole, personal pride, and insults corrode the foundation of any justice system, which is trust. I'm glad to see folks are cooling off, looking ahead, and seeking to come together. But more is needed. I encourage everyone to pause and make a personal commitment not to take bait, not to let your buttons get pressed, to count to ten, to step away, to do whatever you have to do to keep a level head in a stressful situation.

I'm not saying it's not okay to have feelings. I'm saying it's counterproductive to act on them.


===========
Communication
===========

Minecraft chat is shitty, and with people logging in and out during all hours of the day, it leads to counterproductive levels of hearsay, assumptions, and descriptions of events as badly garbled as any game of Telephone. Filling chat with debate and argument is counterproductive.

And, even with the addition of new chat features, using global chat for this purpose is also inconsiderate. Please take it to PM, local chat, the boards, or any one of the infinite out-of-game options. Also: screenshots, screenshots, screenshots. Take them. Be prepared to show them. Even if they don't make the strongest evidence, it shows good faith, through action, that you're engaging the process.


=====
TL;DR
=====

If I tried to summarize every key point in this post, it would take another page or two. So instead, I'll say this: Everything comes down to good faith, which is earned by establishing trust through actions over time. There are some parties who I believe have acted in bad faith (Stan); there are other parties who have made mistakes, lost their tempers, and so on, but who fundamentally remain good faith actors. Those folks include (in no particular order): Caleb, Simon, Commander, Savanah and Intangir. We don't all have to agree with every opinion and action everyone takes, but we should always go back to who is trying their best to act in good faith and who is not. Call it Shanghai's Razor if it helps you remember. That, to me, is the key.

[Intangir]

well that is all pretty useful information, most of which i can't help but agree with, even begrudgingly ..

but it is all in hindsight now ya know... all we can do is try to learn from it and make better choices the next time, pick up the pieces, and move on

that group has joined with so many fake alts, kept griefing, kept HACKING, kept CHEATING.. i can't sort them all out, some of them are using multiple IPs, i can't even tell for sure who is who anymore, all i can tell is that they all have plenty of time, energy, and motivation to continue attacking the server, and they are all working together (based on their timings overlapping 4 times now) (now they are using knockback and speed hacks, and using multiple alts at the same times, i can tell by how only 1 is active at a time)

anyway regardless of whatever mistakes have been made, i feel like banning them all and white listing until they stop trying to log in a dozen alts a day is the only course of action here. or continued to be plagued by a never ending stream of alts and constant drama

[Intangir]

i especially agree to the part about character, and not valuing a new griefer word over a long time trusted player

its also interesting to hear just how much of a sadist progamer also is.. this is information i didn't not have access to

[Simon_Jeeha]

well this isn't putting things behind us.. but i want the record straight

i explained my position to commander repeatedly, he didn't disagree, or argue with me, he just tried to kill me

he didn't share the information i didn't know about, didn't argue points, just tried to kill me

i have stated this repeatedly on the forum here, in like 3 threads now.. and from now on, i agree, thats exactly what i am going to be doing, wasting my time talking to someone in private chat for him to try and kill me was a huge waste of time though,, HUGE waste of time, forum is where im posting it so he can't lie and bend the truth

AFTER trying to kill me, he repeated a couple lines (out of tons) out of context..

and i didn't blow up a player built road, i blew up part of the netherroad that someone else simply used, if it had been reinforced, it wouldn't have blown up

and i didn't do it as a disproportionate act, i did it to kill a guy who was hunting me and plainly stating he was going to kill me who has better gear than me

i thought that was obvious..


i said i would rebuild it anyway, and i already rebuilt part of it..

[SavanahMile]

First I would like to Thank Shanghai_kid for his time, as his precious time has been syphoned from him at great speed.

I appreciate your observation for the group/community, again using so much more of your time.
Time to me is very important, so I appreciate it.  

Personally I fault myself for allowing shystan to be unperled 2nd time, truly hindsight is 20/20,
it was a piviotal moment, when sheep could have been ripped away from the flock master.


People like screen shots it was like this All the time! Everytim he logged in and I was on,
here is a taste...
Alot of people were like why didn't you ignore him.
By his own admission I did when he got unperled.


Still not good enough for ole shyt-stain

As for progamer I felt he was a major instagator in achieving #freeshystan from his second perling,
the old TRUST ME, ahahhahahahah I will vouch for people, LOL  Omg