Anarchic Frontiers Minecraft Server

        Okay, I guess this started way back when NH was started and was set up with its form of government.... I feel like I can openly talk to you guys of just about anything now since I've known you for so long now, so I will: I've been confused since the beginning of NH to now about intangir's and savannah's political views... I thought I knew, but I'm second guessing myself now and hope this will clear things up.
I think we all know intangir and savannah are founders and managers of NH... and I just viewed Ravine City's book and shows savannah as a manager of said city. This stumps me... Are you two anarchists or not?... for government or not for it, which is it.
I'm not saying you can't have a city with laws and guidelines and such, just confused.
Hope you can help me.  :?

Intangir seems to be. I don't think SM is even in the ballpark though. I have a feeling that she's the type to measure your lawn and count your dandelions. I also find her obsessive construction of shopping space that will never be filled kind of disturbing.... in a Keynesian housing bubble sort of way.

Hey commander, First of all I found Ravine city, but most everything in it is Brainlesszombie5, glad you could tell there is a difference, and that is why you are confused, it is not me, the glass ceilings that is me, everything else is Brainlesszombie5.   I saw some new signs near the entrance, personally it looked like most of his book was borrowed from the NH, but with his personal twist.
Simon_the_digger wrote up the book and design of New Haven, not Intangir, he located the town, and when we were all fleeing from elefetheria, Simon, Aly and I originally went with him, and Intangir, NH is an experiment, no one forces anyone to build there, That's why you founded the cool Dragon's Perch, maybe you can help him, I was hoping to see Akira Ravine turn into another Underground city, with an Atlantis twist.

Sign...Now to comment on Shaman's many slanders that I fed up with.  Shaman is constantly instigating conflict with me.  Commander you can read past logs, I have taken more abuse from this Fuck-tard than I ever would any other person on the planet, but there is no pleasing this obviously unhappy soul, so now you get to know how I feel Shaman, as you take EVERY DAM chance to POST a jab at me on Intangir's site no less, continuously instigating nonsense at me, AND EVERYONE SEES IT, Masterful tried to reason with you, and you SHUT UP, and same when SIMON pointed it out last time, what about Lupecake commented on your sub-par build, nothing derogatory to him, but you don't stop personally attacking, name calling or just investigating nonsense at me, you must think I am weak like you.  HELL NO!  I can't keep feeling sorry for someone who keeps attacking me!

Now write up the same nonsense about Brainlesszombie5 Shaman, I dare you as he apparently designed the "obsessive construction of shopping space that will never be filled kind of disturbing..."  Not me in Akia Ravine.  That was Brainlesszombie5 make sure you tell him, we both know you won't, and it did not stop you from claiming a spot in Akira after you read his book and apparently agreed to it, or will you just take the land and not follow his rules.

"Intangir seems to be. I don't think SM is even in the ballpark though. I have a feeling that she's the type to measure your lawn and count your dandelions. I also find her obsessive construction of shopping space that will never be filled kind of disturbing.... in a Keynesian housing bubble sort of way."  
You don't know anything about me.   Yes I trade with people and make places so others can freely trade, and Shaman you turd, I don't like liars like you, and wanna be Shaman, you live in Ohio, not Japan!  In the real world you are a pathetic Jerk who thinks he can continuously slander and ride my ass. Let me tell you about Japanese people, they have a code of honor WHICH you don't, you are not ethical in anyway.  You contradict yourself frequently.  You live in your own make believe world, and  irl i'm sure too bro, I'm done with you!   I have tried over and over to be nice to you since Intangir owns this server but you keep poking the bear you piss-ant!  I have never had anyone be such a flaming hemorrhoid to me as you are,  I am SICK OF YOU and your constant whining and stupid projects. Don't push your life guilt on me, because I am a female!   "I'm building a new rail to the fore-corners of the world, come see the shitty cobble boxes I built!" (smelt some dam stone for a change you cheap shit) while I leave my shitty eyesore in NH just to be an Asssss, because I think I am bothering Savanah and want to try to blackmail Savanah over it, and you got called out by Simon on it, with AGAIN NO COMMENT to Simon.   Nothing to say to Simon?   right..   Shaman you have called me so many communistic names, you are NOT an Anarchist, you don't respect property rights, so get over it!  First time Commander saw your cobble box crap in NH he asked if you were KOS, as he thought you griefed the place, which in essence you have.

to clarify, simon founded new haven, it is a voluntary membership city, it has rules, they are voluntary. brainless built ravine city for the most part, i am not sure what his book says cause ive never read it, never been there, never built there, have nothing to do with it


anarchy means no rulers, not no rules, voluntarily agreeing to another persons terms doesn't make them your ruler

shaman: as far as building shop space that no one will use, everyone does that, everyone builds houses they can't really live in, everyone likes to build cities that aren't really cities.. its the way the game works, people like to build things that represent real life social constructs which are nothing like actual real life social constructs, (like flying roads of mismatched cobble and random woods that cars can never drive on) its part of the fun. It is hypocritical to point it out in situations of shops (that half a dozen others have built) but to ignore the same behavior in your own (and others) empty 'cities'

trying to relate it to keynesian bubbles is straight out of no where.. completely unrelated

i have tried to calm down the situation between shaman and savanah by telling both of them to just let the other be, but shaman .. why are you instigating a fight, is any of your commentary on savanah that related to what he asked?

no

       Yes I know it's completely voluntary, that's why I said "form of government", but with rules comes someone to empower them, "MANAGERS: Simon_the_Digger, Intangir_V, SavannahMile."

       

You are talking about Akira Ravine, right?  Commander it could really use your experience in managing and creating an underground city, I think Brain would welcome it, with the right molding it could be something really awesome.  I personally envisioned where lake Sexy Zombie is as being the more like the center of the ravine and really build out that end with cool water walls and ceilings like old Atlantis.  I have claimed that end to do that kind of expansion.  What are your thoughts Commander specifically?

        I was talking about NH specifically in my last comment.
I may help Akira, I need to check out where everything's at though, first. It takes forever to ride the railway station to places like Shroomica and New Oasis. I miss the nether, travel was way faster there. ;)

I miss the stargates

I hadn't considered akira. I was thinking of that shopping mall in the middle of nowhere with the redstone blocks that says something to the effect of "savanah's shopping mall". And you put it right where I announced I was going to put a little shop along the rail. It's like getting ready to build a farmer's market and bloody walmart (with mostly empty shelves and only one cashier) gets the permit for your spot.

Oh yeah RIGHT!!!!!!!!       This is the first I have heard of it, and most likely a lie since that is all I get from you, you know you would need to claim it, You didn't say anything about Simon's midway station this is you AGAIN trying to give me shit and make others feel sorry for you, trying to make me look liek I took something from you when there was nothing there when I built, I told everyone, but nice change of tactic!  Not buying what your selling, sorry!  but WHATEVER, I don't care, this is a long time coming.  Just STOP even saying my name or referring to me at all I am DONE WITH YOU.

CALL FORTH THE BANNERS

[ author=SavanahMile link=topic=2561.msg17632#msg17632 date=1371775488]
Oh yeah RIGHT!!!!!!!!       This is the first I have heard of it, and most likely a lie since that is all I get from you, [/]

I've never lied even a single time on this forum nor even a single time in chat on minecraft. As an atheist, you probably can't understand the desire to please one's Gods... But mine value honesty above all else. I would not jeopardize my relationship with them over something as infinitesimally important as your opinion of me.


[ author=SavanahMile link=topic=2561.msg17632#msg17632 date=1371775488]
you know you would need to claim it, You didn't say anything about Simon's midway station this is you AGAIN
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I had no plans for a shop at Simon's station, it's an irrelevant issue. I did announce that I was going to build a shop at my junction leading to Yomi. I was delayed for a day and when I got there, your shopping mall was in its spot. I can't help but to feel like you did it on purpose as revenge for not building something you felt was pretty in NH. (Mosaic will be built later.)

[ author=SavanahMile link=topic=2561.msg17632#msg17632 date=1371775488]
trying to give me shit and make others feel sorry for you, trying to make me look liek I took something from you when there was nothing there when I built, I told everyone, but nice change of tactic!  Not buying what your selling, sorry!  but WHATEVER, I don't care, this is a long time coming.  
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If I was hypothetically trying to do anything to make you look bad, you would eclipse it yourself with these hysterics and abuse of the English language.

I don't expect anyone to feel bad for me at all. This game doesn't really matter enough to me to sit and calculate my responses as you insinuate. This game is completely inconsequential. If Intangir told you about my childhood, I suppose I could see where you're coming from, but I told him that in confidence, and still have the expectation of privacy in that matter.

You seem like a good person even if your tendencies irk me and our personalities are utterly incompatible. I can tell you're good because Locke seems happy and energetic. I'll do you the favor of not comparing you to my parents.

I suppose if there are rules, there must also be enforcers. As much as I butt heads with J. Neil Schulman when I'm around him, he does have a point about using market pressure to enforce the rules. If you don't like my work, you're welcome to avoid trading with me.

As far as the enforcement goes when you do it vs when someone else does it:

You tend to serve a notice written officiously as if to evict. Others tend to say "Hey dude, I think this is an error over here... do you mind fixing it?" It's a completely different approach. You may not mean to say it that way, but that's how it comes out. It reads just like the notices I used to get from a corrupt city official in a town I used to live in who would go out after every thunderstorm and measure my grass before I could get around to mowing it (which I still do with a weed-eater for lack of a lawnmower). Maybe that's the reason I don''t like you very much.

So far, you look like a statist to me. If you want me to change my opinion, you'll have prove me wrong. Of course you don't have to at all, but I do often change my mind about something if someone makes a logical argument that I can't refute.



[ author=SavanahMile link=topic=2561.msg17632#msg17632 date=1371775488]
Just STOP even saying my name or referring to me at all I am DONE WITH YOU.
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I don't know if anyone has told you SAVANAH, but you won't really get good results telling anti-authority types what to do. I think they just tried that in Turkey, Syria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt...

As for being done, I thought we already agreed to ignore each other before you went on that rant?

[ author=anoddhue link=topic=2561.msg17633#msg17633 date=1371787520]
CALL FORTH THE BANNERS
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/BlackFlagSymbol.svg

You are so full of it!  You are a liar, I am done with you.  I could give a shit about your opinion, your a liar.        PISS OFF

this is still going on?

i am pretty sure I dug the tunnels and laid the rail up at the Y value where she built her shops

so i technically homesteaded that tunnel

you took parts off of my rail when you branched your way off from my line but i didn't complain

this is a completely pointless conflict and it has gone on forever

i'd offer to be a neutral third party arbitrator but from what is already painfully obvious shaman is just being completely ridiculous and spiteful or is trolling

just drop it, and take down that cobblestone mess you left in new haven for your imaginary friend

shaman what exactly is your problem?
every time you post you bring up new and completely out of left field complaints and criticisms about savanah and i am not sure what it is she did that is sooo bad in the first place

is this all because she wanted you to follow the new haven charter for your new haven constructions? cause we let you slide on alot of things, and she personally protected your bridge support struts from being torn down by simon

what exactly IS your problem? are you capable of explaining your problem without leaping between out of context insults, economics references, and religious beliefs?

this is beyond the point of pushing my patience, i don't want you to use my board for baseless accusations, trolling, and flaming. so if you don't actually have any claims for damages, then i don't want to hear any more comments about savanah. period

also i didnt say anything about any personal stuff to anyone
you've replied before with personal stuff on my facebook threads for anyone to see before though. i wouldn't have recommended it, but i don't see how that has anything to do with this context either

my advice is for you to make a clear list of complaints of actual violations she has made to you or your property, if there aren't any then you need to ask yourself if SHE really has ANYTHING to do with what is eating at you

^

That cobble tower thing sure is ugly.

[ author=anoddhue link=topic=2561.msg17649#msg17649 date=1371853417]
That cobble tower thing sure is ugly.
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Which one?

I've built more than 20.

The New Haven 

The New Haven one, to be sure.

However, despite my complaint, I am still an anarchist since I did not attempt to force you to take it down. I merely let my opinion known.

Similarly, has anyone else on this server attempted to force you to do anything? If so, you may have a legitimate complaint.

If not, well, that cobble tower sure is ugly.

      Any of the three New Haven managers are ,indeed, able to force Shaman to remove that cobble edifice. Given that it isn't anarchy.

what are you talking about commander?

if anyone had forced him to take it down, it wouldn't still be up
and i have barely been on
and i believe its been answered NUMEROUS times that voluntarily accepting conditional TERMS of VOLUNTARY interaction is NOT the same as rulership and is compatible with voluntaryism..

     What don't you understand?
Any of the three managers can make anyone remove something in NH because you all are authorities of NH. You three started the city. How many times have I answered that I am aware it's COMPLETELY voluntary, but it is NOT anarchy.

     You know authority figures and anarchy don't mix, right?
Yes it's voluntary agreeing to rules. That's anarchy. but wait, who's enforcing the rules? Oh right, the managers... Or in other words "authority figures". That's when the anarchy stops.

what part of voluntary aren't you getting

authority the word, is defined and used in alot of different ways

no one HERE is using it but YOU

why dont YOU define authority for us, and tell us if in your context, an authority is a ruler

authority could mean an expert on a subject, like an authority on home gardening, that wouldn't make him a ruler

an authority could be a source of authorship, like a publishing authority

an authority could be someone chosen to handle a project, like the project manager is the authority on client to client protocols..

an authority could be someone who you voluntarily do business with, like the home owner is the authority when it comes to how his property will be managed even while its rented

an authority could be someone who arbitrarily chosen by some non-voluntary method, like an election, a coincidence of birth, "the gods", skin color... whatever, this is the ONLY form of 'authority' that implies a RULERSHIP

RULERSHIP is FORCEFUL CONTROL OF PEOPLE AGAINST THEIR WILL

when 'rulership' is voluntary, its not force, its not against their will, it isnt rulership

so you can TOTALLY have ALL FORMS of above authority EXCEPT the LAST, in an anarchy, because only the last involves rulership, anarchy is no RULERS, anarchy does not mean no authority


your making the logical fallacy of equivocation, misusing/bending/stretching the meaning of the term from usage to usage..

if we were to try and form a society with no central fiat monetary systems, would it make sense to say 'well we cant have any rivers either, because rivers have banks'

        Clearly I'm not talking about home gardening here. In my mind, "authority" means a person of higher rank over the general public (in this case over citizens of NH). It's fine to be the head of a business. It's also quite alright to have rivers with banks. Those examples are irrelevant because one contains a career, and the other contains an in-animate object.... Someone higher in power able to tell regular citizens how to live is what disturbs me. Even if it's entirely voluntary. There are 3 people in NH who enforce their rules.

        It's palpable that we have different views of the word "anarchy".

ya we have different views
mine are clear
and yours are not

if your going to mock my attempts to define and give examples of semantics then i am not going to waste any more of my time on it
and i am not going to be too considerate of your emotions or ego on the matter either

your wrong, ive clearly explained why, you want to be difficult and ignore the facts then don't waste my fucking time

i don't argue fictions, i dont argue for the sake of argument and i don't bend my facts of reality to meet the whims of whatever mislabel im trying to misapply for the sake of a completely FAILED ARGUMENT

your using alot of words you don't understand, your not defining any of your terms
citizen? what citizens? there are no citizens in anarchy
higher power? power over what? their own property? everyone has higher power over some things, so no one is an anarchist by your vague definition

how far do you want to take it? im running the server, obviously i have power over things on the server, so should i therefore never get to claim to be an anarchist because i run a voluntary service? and control the terms of interaction across this gaming medium which runs on my physically owned hardware?

are you a ruler because you have higher power over your own body and home?

make some sense, make some consistent sense, and if you don't, don't be so damn obstinate when someone is trying to help you clarify it

im not wasting anymore of my time explaining this to you, if you persist in mislabeling me i am going to start taking it very personal, you have no excuse

perhaps ill just start calling you things that any reasonable examination would prove you AREN'T, and when you disagree ill just say 'in my mind' whatever bullshit


rules, or voluntarily agreed to terms are not rulership, and they are compatible with anarchy

to clarify im already taking it personal

very personal. you know damn well that anarchists don't particular appreciate being called rulers, and your implying thats what im doing

im not forcing anyone to do anything, i couldn't even if i wanted to

so repeatedly implying that i am a ruler is really becoming insulting

i am pretty sure we've had this same back and forth back when they moved to dragon's perch

if you don't respect a person as being the authority over their own property, your not respecting their property rights, your not respecting their time, effort, their person, your basically asserting an authority over them

complete anti-authoritarianism is self contradictory, the only anti-authoritarianism that isn't contradictory is anti-authoritarianism that is against arbitrary (unearned, involuntary, unreasonable) authority

Just to emphasize, Pedro and I are attached at the hip; not the brain. I'm with Intangir and Simon on this one.. Pedro just loves arguing for the sake of arguing, it isn't worth trying.

 :-D   you are hilarious!

      First of all, I want to apoligize for anything I said to upset you. I'm not in any way trying to boil your temper or cause drama. I said 'in my mind' to specify that it was my opinion and mine alone. If the home gardening comment also offended you, I apoligize, I thought you'd laugh at that rather than get angry at it. I meant resident rather than citizen...

      Secondly, I want to let it be known that this topic has been troubling me since NH's birth. I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying just for the fucking fun of it. wtf?

      It's sincerely just to know where you stand. You've clearly shown me that. I honestly can't think of any better words to make sense to you, I'll do my best though.

      Running the server and being the owner of the server is still being true to the anarchy philosophy as long as you don't assert yourself to be an "admin", "leader", "captain", "manager". All of these words are similar to the word "authority figure" in my opinion. Just like you have the server set up. No ranks. Noone has special power over others. And I think the only rule is no hacking, which is something that can only happen on the internet and not in the real world. All of this makes a great anarchy server like you have going here. And the reason that I've stayed here for literally a year.

     I'm still willing to clarify whatever else I'm saying that is vague to you.

Well I find NH to be voluntary, no one is forced to join.  In NH Simon owned the land and he is allowing homesteading of these lots but on his terms, so that is still voluntary, if you do not agree, don't build there.  It was an experiment.  So if guidelines were setup, WHO would keep their word they agreed to and would people not.  In the history of NH only two people ever had an issue one minor, one still ongoing.  No one Lords over anyone else but there are people who would say something about guideline infringements, or general population complaints. Example Shaman has been asked by other residents, myself and the overall owner Simon, to remove his cobble nightmare from NH has he?   Again this is all voluntary, except he joined into a voluntary agreement with NH, so we do have rights to remove it ourselves.   And people may not choose to do business with people who do not keep their word, as it IS voluntary.  If I say you can use my boat but you must refill the tank with gas and not wreck it, this is like the same thing. If you bring back my boat with no gas and a hole in it surely I would never let you borrow it again or remain friends if the loss was not compensated.   I think the part you did not grasp is the land is Simon's, he discovered it, he sculpted it, and claimed property ownership of it, and offered the safety of an enclosed city and amenities to those who were looking for that, thus again voluntary.  As an example Aly claimed the mountain top which is now Dragon's Perch.  You moved up there and took over her area I assume without asking, was that voluntary?  Maybe you asked her, maybe you didn't?  I have no idea, but she created the ladder up there and settled that area because she likes space, she was 3rd person to NH, and choose and different option, as it again is voluntary. 

I hope that helps and does not spin this in any new direction.

      NH is 100% voluntary, how many times can I say it..


      I don't really remember if we talked with aly when we moved up there. She didn't claim the whole mountain so it didn't really matter. I never touched her land.

I talked to Aly about it before we declared it as a separate town.

Vbelac that's cool, again I had no idea, I just know she never went back to that property because she seems to like space.  I miss Aly, she is an explorer, even in Elefetheria she found her own little floating mountain to build on.  On another note I really like the space ship you guys are building, I totally need more nether quartz!  hahahahah

I just read through this thread and I hope it doesn't count as necro - just wanted to insert my opinion:

I wouldn't consider private property to be a form of government, though it certainly involves someone having decision power (and also responsibility) over some resource, in the case of a city that would presumably be the land it is built on. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having private cities. If it was done offline in a stateless society, it would probably involve the owners of the land having any new settlers sign a contract before they sold or leased them land, and in the contract they would agree to abide by certain rules (and perhaps even cede certain decision-power or rights) in exchange for the property.

Not only is this voluntary and unrelated to government, but I also think it's a very important aspect of property rights which provides important incentives for property owners. Many would lose the incentive to welcome other people into their city if they couldn't agree beforehand on at least a simple set of rules.

Take for instance the castle I'm building. It's (mostly) in medieval style, except for the Temple of Portalis and the Redstone lamps, but I'm classifying both as fantasy magic rather than technology. In keeping with the theme, I don't want people building futuristic spaceships, or glass skyscrapers, etc. I don't think that makes me a ruler in any way, just a property owner who has a few rules :)

Elarim you stated it perfectly in the case of New Haven. Simon claimed the land, and cultivated it.  Aly, Intangir, locke_c and I came with him.  He wanted a perticular look, like a subdivision. There is a city book he created for all new comers/ invitees to read and agree to.  so by takeing a lot and building you agree to the terms of the lot owner.  So kind of like yours it was a theme.  he and I built most all of the roads.  Brainlesszombie5 built its increadable wall, I supplied lots of materials for it as many did so Brain would have materieals to build with and his limited time on the server was focused on the wall not getting cobble.  Everything about that was voluntary it did not require a government for people to pitch in to help a project that benefited us all.  I love my little place in NH, It has a thriving trade in its townsquare.  We have lots of items for sale in Akira as well.. my shameless plug.